Curse

YudaiNao · May 07, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

I've been using more or less this exact set up for pretty much my character's entire career, which has been and will be exclusively PvE, by the way:

Life Siphon, Vampiric Gaze, Dark Pact, Unholy Feast, (Bone Minions/Blood Ritual/Cap Sig/whatever), Blood Renewal, Well of Blood, (Res Sig/Resurrect)

I pumped Blood as high as it would go, with around 5 Soul Reaping for good measure, and the rest dumped into Death to play with. Since I got it for a steal, I have Superior Death as well as Superior Blood.

I throw Siphon on a mob or two, kick up Blood Renewal to make sure I have plenty of regen, and just start spamming Dark Pact like it's going out of style. Vampiric Gaze and Unholy Feast are there if I find myself low on health, and Well of Blood for when I find my party could use it. Life Siphon cost 10 energy each and provide 25 seconds of 3 degen, Dark Pact costs 5 energy and deals 51 shadow damage, and Blood Renewal is also a scant 5 energy. All in all, it's very energy efficient, and my damage is never resisted. The only draw back is that despite my huge regen, I can still find myself a bit low on hits at critical moments. A good warrior mob can chew through me pretty quickly, but I suppose that's the case with any caster.

Anyway, I haven't changed this build in forever, and I also don't really touch any skills from Death or Curses or my subprofession (Monk or Mesmer). I've been thinking about Nova bombing with Minions, but that might actually prove less effective in PvE. I've also thought about trying Earth/Air/Water skills to augment my current set with a few debuffs or maybe even a self protection spell, but nothing really jumped out at me. It could be that this build just can't be improved upon, but I was hoping I could squeeze more effectiveness out of my Necro. Soloing is out the question, and I struggle sometimes doing quests with henches. (I've thought about a 55 build, but I lack Spiteful Spirit and I don't think I have the patience for dealing with interrupts.)

Suggestions? Questions? Comments?

Rion · May 07, 2006, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Since you mentioned Mesmer, I've got a Random Arena / PvE build written down here. This isn't my build, but I'm not sure where I got it from. It's fun, though.

Blood Engine
Soul Reaping ......... 12
Blood Magic .......... 16
Domination Magic ... 5
Illusion Magic ........ 4

Awaken the Blood
Life Transfer
Mark of Subversion
Phantom Pain
Shadow Strike
Vampiric Gaze
Shatter Delusions
Resurrection Signet

Most things will die with a full cycle of the skills. Obviously don't put Mark of Subversion on a class it won't do anything against. This is just off the top of my head, I can probably think of other builds you might be interested in if you give more info on what you find fun.

YudaiNao · May 07, 2006, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rion

Awaken the Blood
Life Transfer
Mark of Subversion
Phantom Pain
Shadow Strike
Vampiric Gaze
Shatter Delusions
Resurrection Signet

- I'd be all over Awaken the Blood if I wasn't sacrificing left and right.
- Life Transfer I'm sure I'll love as soon as I can get my hands on it... though the high reuse and short duration are a bit of a turnoff.
- How effective is Mark of Subversion? In a PvE situation, if you do run into an enemy monk, about how many times is he going to set it off in the 9 seconds it lasts? I'm not sure if this is worth the slot or not.
- Phantom Pain seems like another primarily PvP skill. Could be useful on bosses, but even then I wonder if I couldn't chew through the hits just as easily.
- I used Shadow Strike for a while but eventually replaced it with Unholy Feast for when I get swarmed. Reason being that I almost never got it in while the mob was above 50%, and so it was a waste of energy. I liked to preface it with a Dark Pact (since Shadow Strike heals when the mob is above 50%), and often a Siphon as well, and then after two seconds of casting my target was usually hovering at or below the half way mark.
- Vampiric Gaze: still an old standby. Deal a little extra damage, heal a little extra health, and do it all from a range... it's welcome in most any setup.
- Like Mark of Subversion, Shatter Delusions is very much about being in the right place at the right time, which is hardly my forte (why I subbed Mesmer to begin with, I don't know). My biggest gripe is that I have no way of telling whether or not mobs have anything on them that I can strip.

As for what I find fun, well... I'm basically just trying to maximize my damage output. Maybe I should have rolled an Elementalist instead of a Necromancer. My initial idea was to be a MM, but raising and maintaining an undead army isn't all it's cracked up to be. Awesome as it sounds, it ended up being a fairly tedious process. I saw this Blood nuker build buried in one of the stickies on this board and went with it because it sounded highly effective, but now I'm finding it a bit boring. I really enjoyed my Ranger in the alpha, but I hear they're pretty gimpy now (and I'm not sure I want to be a puller). So I guess I'm going for effectiveness over fun at this point...

blakecraw · May 07, 2006, 01:54 PM // 13:54

I'm not sure if this fits what u want since it's not blood, but it's a necro build so here goes:

SS has a fairly high potential for damage, and it has a pretty quick recharge so (especially w/ echo) u can get multiple copies of it working, and just watch the 37's fly on ur screen.

a build i use goes as follows:

Max curses, rest in blood and soul reaping, more in blood though ususally

SS
Desecrate Enchantments
Insidious Parasite
Parasitic Bond
Enfeeble
Well of Blood
(Arcane Echo, Suffering, Monk Res, Blood Ritual, Shadow of Fear)
Res Sig (if previous isn't a monk res)

YudaiNao · May 07, 2006, 11:09 PM // 23:09

I'm DYING to get my hands on Spiteful Spirit... and I may well end up becoming a curse necro with a mesmer subprof for arcane echo when I do. Hard to part with those solid Blood skills, though. Just gotta bide my time til I can cap it...

ender6 · May 08, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

For those who have become pablum of thought there is a Necro Builds directory listed at the top of this Dir. Probably a good place for you to start. I recommend, if you do visit the thread, that you take the time to read how to use the builds, it might help you generate some ideas of your own. I only mention that because you seem to have become quite complacent in your thinking.

I also think you would benefit by starting with a tried and tested build like the SS necro build (esp. since you mentioned PvE).

I'll give you mine here

*Bring along a cold dmg based weapon to activate Spinal Shivers

Max our Curses | Dump the remainder in Soul Reaping

Spiteful Spirit
Arcane Echo
Parasitic Bond
Spinal Shivers
Rez sig
Awaken the blood
<enfeeble> Wild Card
<Barbs> Wild Card

Cast AtB -- Arcane Echo -- SS first target -- cover with PB -- SS next target -- cover with PB.
Cast barbs & enfeeble onto target that is being attacked by tanks.
Cast Spinal Shivers on healer types and interrupt their spells.

Hope this helps.

Niosisw · May 08, 2006, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by YudaiNao

Just gotta bide my time til I can cap it...

Nighh Spinechill right outiside of Camp Rankor in Talus Chute.

It took me 5 mins at lvl 14 with henchmen....

What are you waiting on?

YudaiNao · May 09, 2006, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

For those who have become pablum of thought there is a Necro Builds directory listed at the top of this Dir. Probably a good place for you to start.

As it just so happens, I've poured through both the build submission AND the necromancer basics stickies like you wouldn't believe. Before I even made my character I had read nearly every post in both threads. Now that I've capped SS, I'm messing around with a build using that, although frankly I think curses pales in comparison to blood before one acquires it. By the way, thanks for the tip about SS, Niosisw -- I actually noticed the same thing mentioned at the end of greaterlych's 55 guide just yesterday and picked it up right after.

Anyway, my point is that I've read plenty of builds, and I've certainly tried using curses and death: I just don't find them anywhere near as powerful as blood. I did dump all my extra points into curses after maxing blood, though, and I do get some usage out of SS in normal gameplay now. However, I find that "adjacent" is often too small a range given how enemies tend to spread out, so SS is hardly my mainstay. I'll give your build a shot as I'm curious to see how it compares to blood nuking, but thus far its unmitigated, unconditional damage does a pretty good job of steamrolling anything, while curses' applications are rather specific.

Niosisw · May 09, 2006, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by YudaiNao

I just don't find them anywhere near as powerful as blood.

I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with you there.

Some people (me) consider an SS and a nuker interchangeable. Some other people call that thought noobish.

I consider SS like Uber Empathy/BackFire, with a fast recharge and a lower cost.

I love it, more than blood at least, but I haven't played blood that much.

Rion · May 09, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by YudaiNao

blood nuking

Is this even possible? Going by the definition of a nuker on Guildwiki, which I find accurate (and which mentions a SS Necro)...

Off the top of my head at least, I can think of 2 Blood Magic skills that inflict damage on multiple foes at once (Vampiric Swarm, Unholy Feast) and neither of them are exactly nukes.

Spiteful Spirit actually does take a bit of getting used to. The trick in PvE is to spread it around as many live targets as you can so that the damage lasts for as long as possible and they hopefully all die at once. ender6's build would be a good start - Just mix things up and be creative.

YudaiNao · May 10, 2006, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rion

Is this even possible? Going by the definition of a nuker on Guildwiki, which I find accurate (and which mentions a SS Necro)...

Nuking doesn't necessarily mean AoE, or atleast it certainly didn't used to. As I said earlier, I find using Dark Pact (and Touch of Agony) to deal relatively large amounts of almost always unresisted damage does the job just fine. Sure it's to single targets, but on the other hand it doesn't kick in the anti-AoE code, and either way it makes quick work of them. Not as quick as it used to, I'll admit. A well placed SS or two can take down a group in short order, but as you say it does take some getting used to. I have a hard time picking out the right targets, as tabbing through can be a bit tiresome when it starts cycling through mobs at the edge of your radar, and trying to match up your desired target with its name plate can be difficult at times. Enemies often come spread out, too.

What I'm having the most trouble with, though, is Spinal Shivers. I really wish mob buffs were displayed when you target them, because I can rarely discern when Shivers is out before it's too late. I try to watch my energy bar whenever I interrupt to see if it goes down, and recast if it doesn't (assuming the skill's recharged), but I find that casting spells in between makes it very hard to keep track of.

Niosisw · May 10, 2006, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by YudaiNao

Sure it's to single targets,

That's called spiking.

I'm pretty sure.

jummeth · May 10, 2006, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Blood Necros tend to spike a lot, whereas Curse Necros quite often nuke.

Especially with double desecrate these days, you can inflict a lot of pain on the new mobs since its armour ignoring. The only new annoyance is that mesmers have a double hex remove now, so you need to cover you SS with 2 cover hexes which can be annoying for your already stacked skill bar. Or you can just do the dirty and re-apply it.

ender6 · May 10, 2006, 02:29 PM // 14:29

@YudaiNao, I'll answer your two concerns/questions in order:

1) Where to place the SS? Usually you want to place it on a melee target, the reason for this is firstly they usually have more health than ranged targets so they won't die first and extinguish SS in the process; secondly if you have a competant tank he will agro the SS carrying enemy and drag him into the MoB, thus getting the most bang for your buck. Now if you are echoing it you can get off 4 fairly quickly, so I don't think it really should be too much of a big deal. Hit melee targets/and grouped targets -- is the rule of thumb.

2)How can I tell when Spinal Shivers has worn off? Not too difficult, how you use spinal shivers is you place it on a spell casting target and then you wail on the target with your cold dmg weapon. If you see that the target's spells are not being interrupted anymore, then it has worn off. I believe hexs cast on bosses last for half the duration as they normally would, so you can also do a quick count in your head. If you see the pink arrow disappear on the enemy's health bar that is another good sign. All and all, method number one is the simplest and most reliable.

YudaiNao · May 12, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niosisw

That's called spiking.

Ohh! Good to know, thanks.

After trying ender6's curses build in the desert for a while, I made a kind of crossover between it and my old blood spiker build, with 11+4 blood/12+3 curses, and ran that through Ice Caves of Sorrow and Iron Mines of Moladune. I had Life Siphon and Vampiric Gaze to keep my health up and do added damage, as well as Spiteful Spirit and Enfeeble to do my primary damage and keep the melees under control, and a few sundry others like Resurrect and Well of Blood. (Life Siphon also acted as a cover hex for SS.) Admittedly, I would've likely done better to switch back to Mesmer and use Arcane Echo, but I found that even doing fewer SS's my energy ran dry in longer fights. The one place I really liked SS was on boss fights. While it only lasts half as long on the bosses themselves, it lasts the full duration on his minions and splashes right onto him. This was probably the most effective situation for SS I encountered. I still found it leaving something to be desired on smaller groups of average enemies, however. Maybe the tanks weren't doing a good job of clustering up the enemies, but on the other hand I find that's very difficult to do in GW as there's no such thing as a taunt and adds go straight for the casters.

Just now I put together a new blood spiker build-- combining what I learned from SSing, as well as my new Monk subjob and my lovely Life Transfer elite cap-- which I think is going to do some serious damage. It's 12+4 blood, 7+3 curses, and 9 healing. I've got Vampiric Gaze for an emergency heal, a 7 pip Healing Breeze for constant regen, Dark Pact for 51 points of unresisted damage every 2 seconds, an 8 pip Life Transfer to use in place of HB whenever it's up, Enfeebling Blood for 15 secs of AoE weakness, and Blood Ritual incase I decide to battery (also Cap Sig and Resurrect). Regen was the big weakness of my original blood spiking build, where I was trying to cobble a bunch together from Life Siphons and Blood Renewal. Mobs die relatively quickly (or decide to aggro me thanks to casting Siphon on them), and Blood Renewal's 25% health sac was just a bit too high. The 30 second reuse on Life Transfer is harsh, but it's not vital to this build. I thought about including Spiteful Spirit too, as it would be useful even doing reduced damage, but I want to atleast try out Life Transfer for a bit. I haven't had much of a chance to test this out, besides a quick run down to Port Sledge, so I'll post my findings if I make any major changes.

Yakumo · May 12, 2006, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Errr... WOW! It feels as though someone has read my mind and then posted some of my thoughts on an Internet forum! =P

I have similar feelings towards SS and its usefulness in PvE, especially against a scattered mob. Against a clustered mob, SS really shines. As a SS Necro in a UW duo or as a 55 Necro, I can't get enough of SS and think it's great. But when I PvE (questing/exploring), I sometimes feel alittle disappointed with it.

Like ender6 said, a competant tank will ensure you get the most out of SS... but that rarely happens when running around with henchies, someone will always pull aggro away from the tanks, causing the mob to chase rather than attack... *looks at Alesia/Lina/Mhenlo*

I like using SS, but its place on my skillbar is not permanent. I tend to switch between a blood build or a curse build, depending on how I feel and what kind of damage (and fun) I want. =D

The blood build I use is: Life Siphon, Life Transfer, Shadow Strike, Dark Pact, Vampiric Gaze, (Touch of Agony/Barbed Signet/<something or other>), Healing Breeze, Rebirth.

The curse build: Awaken the Blood, Spiteful Spirit, Desecrate Enchantments, Parasitic Bond, Enfeeble, (Suffering/Soul Barbs/<something else>), Healing Breeze, Rebirth.

Have fun with Life Transfer, it's a nice skill. The recharge is kinda long, but a 20/20 off-hand and 20 half recharge wand (or 20/20 staff) should help out a bit. =)

YudaiNao · May 13, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

I tried using Awaken the Blood in my curses build as I picked up the Ice Caves bonus just a moment ago... not only did it get shattered pretty often, it also ate up a very valuable 10 energy. Energy is a huge concern with this build, I've found. Also, getting Arcane Echo shattered off you is BEYOND annoying. My biggest issue was aggro, though. Maybe I keep getting groups with mediocre warriors, but it seemed like I always had an add on me. Could be that necros are a popular target: I'm always the first to go down when running for an infuse at Moladune. Anyway, this is a problem no matter what build I run. Especially in my last group, the warriors were really, really hesistent to run in and attack the mob at the start, while I tend to be a bit more agressive. I'm highly squishy with only 60 armor per piece and 400 health, so aggro is a Very Bad Thing, and it also ensures that atleast one mob isn't clustered up for SS damage. I'm sure a little patience would help, but on the other hand the primary strategy with SS is to cast it on things the warriors aren't attacking, which sounds like an excellent way to take aggro if ever I've heard one. This could be a problem with the group as much as it is with me, but does anyone have any tips for managing hate?

Francis Crawford · May 13, 2006, 09:56 AM // 09:56

I've never played an SS, but I've done a lot of nuking, and thus have the same issues.

The key is PATIENCE. Wait a few seconds and stand around being useless while the warriors start the fight. A caster who fires the first shot in a fight is generally a short-lived caster.

As for picking your target -- if your group is calling targets, there's little issue. Follow the called target, then tab off of it and cast SS on the next victim you get to, and you won't go far wrong.

Target calling is your friend. It's also a great reason to always have at least one ranger in your group ...

Yakumo · May 15, 2006, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Managing hate? Hmmm... I tend to kite alot, especially when using health degens. If they're chasing me, they're not attacking and their health will still drop.

Or, just run to break aggro, and let the mob find someone else to beat on. I would say train the mob to the warriors or other squishies, but that sounds nasty!

If you attract aggro like no tomorrow, then consider some of the following skills (I find they work well with SS).

Insidious Parasite - steal health (damage to them, healing for you)
Price of Failure - foe has 25% chance to miss (damage to them)

If Mesmer second, try these as well.

Spirit of Failure - foe has 25% chance to miss (energy regain for you)
Distortion - 75% chance to evade attacks for 5 seconds

So something like:

SS, Enfeebling Blood, Insidious Parasite, etc - Whilst being beaten upon, you'll take reduced damage whilst stealing health.

Or... SS, Enfeebling Blood, Price of Failure, Spirit of Failure, etc - Whilst being beaten upon, you'll take reduced damage, and the combo of Price of Failure and Spirit of Failure will increase the chance of not being hit (whether you cast both on one foe or spread them across two). You'll gain energy as they take damage when they miss.

(I've not put Insidious Parasite with the 'X of Failure' spells as health steal will not occur if a foe misses. However, if cast on different foes, you'll get the best of both worlds, both health steal and less chance of being hit whilst damaging them).

Distortion will help you evade attacks, and also cause Price of Failure and/or Spirit of Failure to kick in more. Its drain on energy might be a problem, but it can be offset by using Spirit of Failure.

With a combination of these skills, one should be able to handle the beats whilst continuing to dish out some hurt. =)

Cirian · May 15, 2006, 12:24 PM // 12:24

I prefer Blood when I'm with henchmen to Curses, for a bunch of reasons rather than just one. I guess the main reason is the damage/healing duality of the line

My PvE bar feels a bit messy at the moment but it's doing the job.

/Rt secondary.
16 (18) Blood
13 Soul Reaping
3 Restoration

AL70 Necrotic/Tormentor's armour + Bloodstained Boots

1 Soul Leech {E} 84 (93) lifesteal

I love this elite to bits. This works like a cheaper, faster refreshing, lifestealing Backfire. Pure brutality

2 Mark of Subversion 97 (108) (I think... working from memory)

This is basically an anvil to crush things against. Works a treat on enemy necromancers too, like Kirins casting Tainted Flesh, or dudes that like to use Death Nova.

3 Vampiric Swarm 62 (68) lifesteal, up to 3 targets
4 Blood Drinker 68 (74) lifesteal, 10s Bleed (self - meant to be combo'd with a Plague skill)

My standard attacks. I was taking Plague Touch to transfer the bleed from Drinker and as general condition removal, but the henchies are ninjas at curing me of conditions so I dropped it! >.<

5 Well of Blood - 21s regen 6 (22s regen 7)

This is so good I never leave home without it. The total life healed is 252, or 308 under Awaken the Blood. My strategy usually revolves around spiking down a mob and dropping this baby asap

It's a great recovery tool if one of the support goes down too.

6 Awaken the Blood

This gets shattered a fair bit but it's worth it. Just browsing my other blood skills, you can see the damage boost in brackets for casting at L18... its probably worth it for the boost to Well of Blood alone!

7 Cap Sig

As you do, when there are elites to be found

8 Flesh of My Flesh

5s rez with no recast and just 5 energy makes this a good in-combat rez, preferably in combination with a Well on the target's corpse to rez them into. I like having Soul Leech out or Swarm/Drinker at the ready to steal back some of the lost life.

Overall this is pretty robust for the general PvE adventuring I'm doing right now (Kurzick forests). I liked the Wail of Doom elite for warrior/ranger/assassin shutdown, but I was lacking the punch I had against casters/assassins with Soul Leech

Soul Leech is from Abaddon's Mouth btw